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Last balance change sucked... get it right next time

killerkiller Posts: 1,208Member
Before last balance change, at t-standard the top decks were all-
Either or Both princes, pekkas, golems

Now.... its still the same

And ladder...
hog is still overused AND over represented in all the top winning decks.

Honestly, I see no real change in the metas or in what decks are performing best. Yes... tornado is not as effective. Dart gob a lil better. Thats about it.

DP needs a real nerf.
Golem and pekka need nerfs
And hog is still OP

I dont have specific stat suggestions- but I think these all need adjustments
vouz81kqd95y.png
Two decks:
Ram/exe/miner/tornado/ggang/poison/log/goblins
Rhogs/tesla/valk/musk/fireball/zap/ggang/bats
Signature art by JcttehTheWise

Comments

  • TrainerWroyceTrainerWroyce Posts: 783Member
    .........................
  • ferrell34ferrell34 Posts: 1,453Moderator
    Let us recall how a card should be nerf logically (for the sake of the game):
    The rate of Ladder Winrates (Leagues), Grand Challenge Winrates and Total Userates(Leagues + (Classic/Grand) Challenges) > 39%. To shorten things i will call it: LWGWTU rate.

    The Beta Night Witch and pre-April nerf Dark Prince fulfilled all the conditions above and required an urgent solid nerf. According to StatsRoyale, here's what i found on Hog Riders, Golem and Pekka:

    Hog Rider LWGWTU rate = 35.52%
    Golem LWGWTU rate = 32.12%
    PEKKA LWGWTU rate = 32.54%
    Dark Prince LWGWTU rate = 37.5%

    What could we conclude from the data above? Yes, none of them has touched that 40% LWGWTU rate. Which means none of them needs an urgent nerf. Dark Prince does need a little bit of nerf to back him down a little, but he doesn't need to be count as a disaster for the game right now. So Supercell did quite a good job at balancing (for equality and diversity).

    Personally, i don't really agree with the balance changes (because of the Lightning buff). But since that's just my personal benefits (aka ego /and selfishness), i ignore them and accept it (the balance changes) for the greater good of the game.

    I would also like to see what's the source that backups your statement.
    EarthThis signature is my city
  • killerkiller Posts: 1,208Member
    Which statements?

    In terms of winning in tourneys and challenges... I play multiple tourneys and challenges. I always review what the top 10 spots are playing. I have noted multiple times after surveying such the over representation of pekka, golem and 3m in the top spots.

    Regarding hog-
    In my cuprange hog has maintained approx 40% for literally the last 2 years.
    I was looking at top winning decks on stats royal as well. For example, if you look at too decks in stats royal for arena 12 and sort by winrate, then you will see that 9 out of the too 25 decks contain hog. I don’t know why you picked 40% but considering there are about a dozen win conditions you can build a deck around, hog clearly is over represented.
    ferrell34
    vouz81kqd95y.png
    Two decks:
    Ram/exe/miner/tornado/ggang/poison/log/goblins
    Rhogs/tesla/valk/musk/fireball/zap/ggang/bats
    Signature art by JcttehTheWise
  • ferrell34ferrell34 Posts: 1,453Moderator
    edited May 2018
    The ideal number of a balanced card in LWGWTU rate is supposed to be 33.33%, which means that it's been used 1/3 of the card variety and has an average number of success. This also apply on the other 2/3 of the cards. Well, there's a little bit of slip of number such as the Hog Rider because of the userates. Of course, userates doesn't 100% decide balancing. Userate don't just increase because of the card's effeciency, but also from the Clash community's playstyle. Some like to play by Cycle, some like to play Beatdown.. it's their choice and it seems that most of Clash community prefer "short term strategies".

    I chose 40% rate (LWGWTU) as a nerf limit because it's too far from the "ideal number". The rate that goes that far couldn't just happen because of the community's playstyle, it happens because it's more effective/ and more versatile than the other. That's my reasoning.

    You stated that Hog is overused and overpresented in all top winning decks. How did you know? Where was he overused? Which top winning decks?
    According to StatsRoyale, his current Total Userates (Grand Challenge, Classic Challenge and Leagues) doesn't even touch 30%.

    Don't just use your personal experience to prove out things mate. The world doesn't work like that.

    Note: Not all decks in StatsRoyale are actually good.
    EarthThis signature is my city
  • killerkiller Posts: 1,208Member
    Ive always said hog was overused on ladder. Again... I’ve been playing against approx 40% hog for the last two years. If there are easily a dozen cards you can build a deck around then in a balanced game no single win condition card should be seen 30-40% of the time. And I know I’m not alone in this as we’ve all seen the complaints for years about ‘hog royale’.

    And again... as no one seems to dispute... at my tange 4300-4600 cups usually, I can see higs as low as lvl9 succeed. But you do nit see lvl11 RGs oe ebarbs, lvl9 giants, lvl6 golems or pekkas... lvl11 mortars.... if the hig can succeed at lower lvls then all other win cons then clearly it is OP.

    Which, btw, is whats not reflected on stats royal... for instance, take ebarbs... if you look at arena 11 stats ebarbs is the card with the second highest winrates! What a great card! What it doesn’t indicate is that ebarb decks almost always have their cards overleveled compared to their opponents. So while ebarbs look great their in stats royale, we all know that the ebarb user there is always max level but the guy with hig can be as low as lvl9 in that arena.
    vouz81kqd95y.png
    Two decks:
    Ram/exe/miner/tornado/ggang/poison/log/goblins
    Rhogs/tesla/valk/musk/fireball/zap/ggang/bats
    Signature art by JcttehTheWise
  • micsfyuenmicsfyuen Posts: 758Member
    While you quote numbers from statesroyale, do you wonder why the average of win rate is always 50%+ and the sum of usage rates does not equal to 800%.
    I always think somthing is wrong with statsroyale's numbers.
  • ferrell34ferrell34 Posts: 1,453Moderator
    edited May 2018
    killer wrote: »
    Ive always said hog was overused on ladder. Again... I’ve been playing against approx 40% hog for the last two years. If there are easily a dozen cards you can build a deck around then in a balanced game no single win condition card should be seen 30-40% of the time. And I know I’m not alone in this as we’ve all seen the complaints for years about ‘hog royale’.

    You have to know that there's still a chance that your matchups were "coincidence". You talk alot how you met Hog Rider 40% of the time, but from my current personal experience in 4k i saw Huts, Giant and LogBait most of the time. Hog Rider and EBarbs were like.. 15% of my mathups. I believe that "old times" shouldn't be bothered any longer, instead focus on what's right now. I mean Three Musketeers are also in the effective deck list for a long time till now. Do you just want to kill Hog Rider?
    And again... as no one seems to dispute... at my tange 4300-4600 cups usually, I can see higs as low as lvl9 succeed. But you do nit see lvl11 RGs oe ebarbs, lvl9 giants, lvl6 golems or pekkas... lvl11 mortars.... if the hig can succeed at lower lvls then all other win cons then clearly it is OP.

    Which, btw, is whats not reflected on stats royal... for instance, take ebarbs... if you look at arena 11 stats ebarbs is the card with the second highest winrates! What a great card! What it doesn’t indicate is that ebarb decks almost always have their cards overleveled compared to their opponents. So while ebarbs look great their in stats royale, we all know that the ebarb user there is always max level but the guy with hig can be as low as lvl9 in that arena.

    You have to realize that card levels aren't just the factor to win but skill as well. Remember GameOver? The first lvl 1 account that touched 4k this year? He used a lvl 1 Giant Skeleton in his deck. Does that mean Giant Skeleton should be nerfed? No. GS' LWGWTU doesn't even touch 20%! That happened because of skill and a lil' bit of luck. I believe this should explain very well.

    micsfyuen wrote: »
    While you quote numbers from statesroyale, do you wonder why the average of win rate is always 50%+ and the sum of usage rates does not equal to 800%.
    I always think somthing is wrong with statsroyale's numbers.

    I trust StatsRoyale because News Royale once promotes it. I mean.. as a game company they wouldn't lead the players to a misleading information especially it's about their game.
    EarthThis signature is my city
  • killerkiller Posts: 1,208Member
    Hi Ferrell- my 40% comes from periodic battlelog surveys taken over the last few years. I’m aware that small sample sizes is meaningless. Its not coincidental that hog use has been consistently the #1 win condition in my battles. (And ebarbs has been #2)

    If its meaningful, at the moment out of last 25 hog has on,y been 25% of battles and ebarbs at 36%. In this short term sample ebarbs are #1. But I am quite certain if I increase the sample size we’ll see that hog will be #1, ebarbs #2. I have done surveys of my cuprange and this has been consistent since ebarbs came out.

    And regarding the hog card levels... of course a single person suceeding with a low level card is not significant. And skill is a factor. But we are not talking about an isolated incident. I’m certain many can corroborate that they see lvl9 hogs up to mid 4k while not seeing similarly leveled alternative win cons. Either skilled players eschew other win cons or the cards is OP.

    Btw- regarding 3m... I believe it has been OP for a long time. I remember laughing at SC when they nerfed gob gang which was a 30% value because it was OP but wouldn’t touch 3m which offered the exact same value at the time. I believe 3m
    vouz81kqd95y.png
    Two decks:
    Ram/exe/miner/tornado/ggang/poison/log/goblins
    Rhogs/tesla/valk/musk/fireball/zap/ggang/bats
    Signature art by JcttehTheWise
  • killerkiller Posts: 1,208Member
    Just to provide more on overuse- I currently have 35 games in my log... 14 of them are hog based. Exactly 40%.
    vouz81kqd95y.png
    Two decks:
    Ram/exe/miner/tornado/ggang/poison/log/goblins
    Rhogs/tesla/valk/musk/fireball/zap/ggang/bats
    Signature art by JcttehTheWise
  • ferrell34ferrell34 Posts: 1,453Moderator
    edited May 2018
    I guess we just have to agree to disagree. But i'm glad this discussion turns out pretty healthy.
    EarthThis signature is my city
  • TotillityTotillity Posts: 184Member
    killer wrote: »
    Before last balance change, at t-standard the top decks were all-
    Either or Both princes, pekkas, golems

    Now.... its still the same

    And ladder...
    hog is still overused AND over represented in all the top winning decks.

    Honestly, I see no real change in the metas or in what decks are performing best. Yes... tornado is not as effective. Dart gob a lil better. Thats about it.

    DP needs a real nerf.
    Golem and pekka need nerfs
    And hog is still OP

    I dont have specific stat suggestions- but I think these all need adjustments

    I pretty much agree. DP does need a nerf. His usage dropped, i think. I don't see him as much. Just a small nerf is needed now. Golem doesn't need a nerf. If it does get a nerf, the Pekka will drop in usage by its self. If pekka gets a nerf, Golem usage will spike. The main problem (according to Tag) is that there are some troops that are unstoppable behind a golem. That, plus the tornado nerf, means golem is strong (looking at you, prince).

    I'll have to disagree with you on that hog is OP. Currently, there are 2 meta hog decks, the hunter 3m and the 2.6 hog. The latter isn't very OP (I play golem though, and that deck's defense seems pretty flimsy). The former might be, but that is because of the 3m hunter synergy.

    The Dart Gob buff was a good thing, but not enough.I suggest a hitspeed buff to 0.6 sec.

    Overall, those balances did NOTHING. Double prince is as strong as ever, bait maybe stronger. XBow is the only real change I see (small decline in usage).
    IGN - Rage4Wage, Trophies: 4000-4300, PB - 4320
    Resident Golem Champion
    Consider Joining a Sir Tag Family Clan
  • HarryTTLHarryTTL Posts: 663Member
    Seem like a rant to me....
    Hog is fine althrough if you low down on elixer or have no real fast counter it would still be a pain.
    Don't blame the golem, blame your defense, strategy. Low on elixer when opponent has a golem is a real problem. Try to find a way to kill the support.
    Pekka is fine.
    Dark Prince is fine now.
    This week:
    p
    All credits go to JCTTEH THE WISE
    My Theory Thread: https://communityroyale.com/discussion/3328/theory-magic-archer-bandit-rascals#latest
  • killerkiller Posts: 1,208Member
    HarryTTL wrote: »
    Seem like a rant to me....
    Hog is fine althrough if you low down on elixer or have no real fast counter it would still be a pain.
    Don't blame the golem, blame your defense, strategy. Low on elixer when opponent has a golem is a real problem. Try to find a way to kill the support.
    Pekka is fine.
    Dark Prince is fine now.
    Seems like an arbitrary dismissal to me...

    Again, one only has to go to stats royal, look at popular decks and sort by win rate in challenges or tournaments ... you’ll see a sea of dark princes, pekkas and golems at the top.

    Btw.. Im very familiar with the strength of the golem. My alt acct is a lvl9 player with a 9/7/5/2 Golem deck with a PB of 3700+ cups. I battle mostly lvl10and 11 players with 2-3 card level advantage. Once I had switched to Golem my PB soared.

    So I’m sorry if your arbitrary dismissal isn’t meaningful. One only has to look at the top winning decks at t-standard to see which cards are over performing.
    vouz81kqd95y.png
    Two decks:
    Ram/exe/miner/tornado/ggang/poison/log/goblins
    Rhogs/tesla/valk/musk/fireball/zap/ggang/bats
    Signature art by JcttehTheWise
  • No_C_StickNo_C_Stick Posts: 134Member
    edited May 2018
    killer wrote: »
    And again... as no one seems to dispute... at my tange 4300-4600 cups usually, I can see higs as low as lvl9 succeed. But you do nit see lvl11 RGs oe ebarbs, lvl9 giants, lvl6 golems or pekkas... lvl11 mortars.... if the hig can succeed at lower lvls then all other win cons then clearly it is OP.

    I have to disagree with you on this. I am in your trophy range as well, although I can climb as high as 4800, and I rarely ever face a level 9 hog. Most are level 10, but there are plenty of level 11 hogs as well.

    I face level 6 PEKKAs and Golems more often than I do level 9 hogs. I myself sport a level 6 PEKKA, as you can see in my signature.

    Rare cards can be levelled up far more easily than epics, hence why I find your statement odd.

    As for the Royale Goodgame (RG), there are 2 main reasons you won't find a level 11 RG at that trophy range:

    1. Common cards are very easy to level up, you can max out one card in a couple of months, thus even new players, especially those who drop real currency on the game, will have a max RG in weeks (6-10 weeks).
    2. Long time players were strutting the big fella since mid 2016 when it became overbuffed and have long since maxed it out.

    The same arguement applies to mortar users.

    KT lvl 13
    PB 5877
    Main deck: PEKKA Beatdown
    PEKKA 13, Poison 13, B Dragon 13, Zap 13, Fire Spirits 13, Bandit 13, LJ 12, Ice Wiz 13

    ~There is only one PEKKA deck that is worthy, and that is mine~
  • killerkiller Posts: 1,208Member
    No_C_Stick wrote: »
    killer wrote: »
    And again... as no one seems to dispute... at my tange 4300-4600 cups usually, I can see higs as low as lvl9 succeed. But you do nit see lvl11 RGs oe ebarbs, lvl9 giants, lvl6 golems or pekkas... lvl11 mortars.... if the hig can succeed at lower lvls then all other win cons then clearly it is OP.

    I have to disagree with you on this. I am in your trophy range as well, although I can climb as high as 4800, and I rarely ever face a level 9 hog. Most are level 10, but there are plenty of level 11 hogs as well.

    I face level 6 PEKKAs and Golems more often than I do level 9 hogs. I myself sport a level 6 PEKKA, as you can see in my signature.

    Rare cards can be levelled up far more easily than epics, hence why I find your statement odd.

    As for the Royale Goodgame (RG), there are 2 main reasons you won't find a level 11 RG at that trophy range:

    1. Common cards are very easy to level up, you can max out one card in a couple of months, thus even new players, especially those who drop real currency on the game, will have a max RG in weeks (6-10 weeks).
    2. Long time players were strutting the big fella since mid 2016 when it became overbuffed and have long since maxed it out.

    The same arguement applies to mortar users.
    Re RG... I realize that its easier to max these cards. But, if maxxed quicker and its as good a card at equal levels, the maxxed player should simply climb faster. If a lvl9 hog = lvl11 RG, then in theory you shoukd find them roughly equally leveled at similar cupranges. But as we all know, the easily levelled common cards are usually lvled higher then their opponents to succeed. Even now, if I battle ebarbs or RG almost without fail they will have a multitude of other cards leveled higher then mine.

    By way of example, I am playing a ram deck with 2 cards maxxed, all my other cards are 1 or 2 lvls below max. I just battled an RG deck with 5 of his 8 cards fully maxxed meaning he had an advantage of half his deck lvled 1 or more above mine. But this is to be expected when you battle RG or Ebarb users; to compete they generally have to have a deck more leveled then yours. Now within my last 25 games, so within this same cuprange, I battled a hog deck that was x/9.5/5.66/3... so his 2 best cards were one under max and the rest were 2 or 3 under! I am saying if I battle someone with a deck with card levels this low inevitably it will be a hog deck.

    of course I see plenty 11 hogs at my cuprange. But I see many more lower level hogs relative to other win con cards.
    vouz81kqd95y.png
    Two decks:
    Ram/exe/miner/tornado/ggang/poison/log/goblins
    Rhogs/tesla/valk/musk/fireball/zap/ggang/bats
    Signature art by JcttehTheWise
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